Vuyani Joni: Champ, thanks for making time to talk to us. Our readers have not heard from you in a long time. What are you up to these days?
Lucky Lekgwathi: You know you’re always welcome, my brother. Eish, because of this lockdown, I have been busy with my Lucky Lekgwathi Foundation, giving food parcels and other essentials to a number of communities. It is important that we give back and help wherever we can. I have also been keeping busy promoting my clothing brand (Fantastic 14), as you may know the significance behind number 14. It was my favourite jersey number that made history, I spent14 seasons at Orlando Pirates, got 14 Bafana Bafana caps, I have 14 stairs at my house, my son is also 14 years old this year. You’ll also remember that people still call me Captain Fantastic, so I had to marry the two and that’s how I came up with the brand name. People have been encouraging me to keep my legacy alive. I must say they’ve been really supportive of my clothing brand and it feels good to know that I’m still appreciated and loved even though I’ve retired.
VJ: Great to know and keep up the good work with your Foundation. You must be missing football?
LL: Kakhulu (Too much)! Eish, since the lockdown started, life hasn’t been the same. I miss both playing and watching football. We used to play social games on Sundays or get legends’ invitations to play out of town. That kept me busy on weekends and if I wasn’t playing, I’d be glued to my television watching the sport.
VJ: As one of the most successful Bucs captains, you must be following the team’s progress…
LL: For sure! Whenever the boys are playing at home, I am at Orlando Stadium to support them. That’s my home and I always tell people that I supported this team way before I played for it. So, I wasn’t just a player but a passionate supporter of the team, which is why I always gave my all for the team.
VJ: What do you make of their 2019/2020 season?
LL: You know what, we started well and then… eintlik (actually), this is from last season when we finished second. We carried the momentum and started this season with a good win against Bloemfontein Celtic at home and then there was a time when we started dropping points. I’m not sure why, but I think chopping and changing of the playing personnel also played a role in us dropping points. If you check, we gave a number of new players a chance this season. We had Xola and Musa in the midfield, but that changed to Ben and Makaringe. The same thing happened in front where, at some point, we had Mabasa as our main striker, but he’s been coming off the bench now with Mhango playing as the main striker. It is good that Mhango was scoring goals, but our downfall has been the chopping and changing in the team from last season.
VJ: Interesting.
LL: To get new combinations going, in the middle of the season, is never easy for any team. You can’t bring in three or four new players at once and expect them to gel with the rest of the team immediately. This takes me back to after we won the first treble. The chairman signed Siya, Thandani, Benni and other guys to strengthen the team, but our coach didn’t throw all of them into the mix immediately. He first gave Siya a chance and allowed him to adapt to the team, then he introduced the other guys gradually and the guys managed to adapt. Look at Thabo Matlaba and how well he ended up doing after he was introduced, gradually, into the team. In fact, all the new signings managed to do well because they were given enough time to get used to the team instead of throwing almost all of them into the team at once. That happens when you have a new coach because everyone wants to impress and the coach feels he needs to give everyone a fair chance. Our other downfall was losing against Kaizer Chiefs, eish! If you want to compete for the league title, you make sure to beat the teams above you and it was unfortunate that we lost to Chiefs. That’s when our chances of challenging for the title took a knock because if we beat Chiefs, we’d be in a completely different position now. We were going to play Sundowns before the lockdown and I knew we were going to beat them because Sundowns are scared of us. Having said that, not all is lost and the boys have been doing well. The downfall was losing to Chiefs, like I said – those are the games you don’t want to lose. Relegation-threatened teams and title challengers are teams you don’t want to lose to.
VJ: After coming so close to winning the league last season, was it necessary for Pirates to make so many new signings?
LL: I always compare whatever happens now to our double-treble winning team. After winning the first treble, the chairman didn’t take things for granted or get satisfied, he went on to get even more quality to add to what we already had. Siya was playing for Bafana, Benni had just come back from Europe, Rantie was new with a great potential, Matlaba was called up to the national team regularly and, just like I said earlier, all these guys played an important role in our second treble. When we finished second, the chairman didn’t relax but went on to sign quality players because he knew we were going to play continental football. The difference between our team and the current is that they made the mistake of changing the team too much. If you compare the team that finished second to the current, you will find that they’re almost two completely different teams and that means there’s no consistency. Benni scored crucial goals, Siya was scoring crucial goals and defending, so was Matlaba, Bibo and TK, for example. These guys joined a winning team but, like I said, they were never introduced at the same time and they managed to play a big role. They were also leaders, helping me to guide the team. I could never have done all the job of leading that team on my own, without the experienced players’ assistance. When the likes of Benson, Siya, Moeneeb, Juju, Rooi, Daine and other senior players played their role, it became easy for me to manage and lead the team. We were all leaders, although I was the only one with an armband.
VJ: Speaking of the armband and leadership, since your and Sangweni’s departure, there’s been a massive leadership vacuum in the Bucs team. Is that a fair observation?
LL: You know what, this is not the first time I’ve heard this. Most supporters always complain about the lack of leadership in the team, but I always tell them the same thing. Yes, I was the captain, but it was never just about me. I wasn’t the only leader. Before every game, I used to tell everyone that we’re all captains and therefore everyone had a role to play. If you look at the current team, wonke umthwalo siwubeke ku Happy Jele to carry it and that’s not fair. When I’m watching the team, I can see Happy issuing instructions and encouraging players, especially young guys, whenever they make mistakes, but he can’t do it alone. Other senior players need to come to the party. They must play their role and show that they are seniors. People still talk about my leadership, but they forget that each and every position had a leader. Moeneeb and Senzo were leaders, I was there with Siya, Oupa and Jali were our commanders in the midfield, while Benni and Juju lead from the front. Oupa and Jali were young, but they were leaders because they learned a lot from us. As young as they were, we gave them confidence and freedom to express themselves freely. They were never scared of me or any other senior because we were all equal but respected one another. No defender could do anything in the midfield that those two were not happy about and get away with it. They’d let you know and that was the case with all the other departments.
VJ: Right.
LL: Now I don’t see that happening and it looks like all the responsibility has been given to Happy. It is impossible for Happy to do it without others’ help. It looks like people think, just because he’s been at the club the longest, he should have all the answers. It isn’t about the period of your service but the impact you have in the team. The chairman brought you to make a difference, but if you don’t lead, then you’re not playing your part. People can look at Mahoota and think he’s quiet, but he was the same as Daine, in terms of being vocal and leading by example. You must remember they’d won league titles with SuperSport United and they’d never keep quiet when something wasn’t right. I don’t think that’s happening now. Happy seems to be the only leader just because he’s wearing the captain’s armband. Our senior players need to come to the party and help Happy. Like I said, he can’t do it on his own. It doesn’t matter where you’re coming from, as long as you’re part of the team, you have a role to play. Pirates wouldn’t sign you if you were not good enough.
VJ: True.
LL: I joined Pirates in 2002 and we won the league title. The chairman then brought Papic and he got us to play the most entertaining brand of football. We were attacking all the way and were just unlucky not to win anything. If you compare the treble-winning team to this one, I believe we have a better team now and during Papic’s time than the one we had when we won the double treble. We should be dominating now, but our biggest problem has been chopping and changing! Pirates is no ordinary team and some players take longer to adjust and getting new players to gel with the team is not easy. A coach needs to be very careful about that process because some players are never the same after joining a big team. Senior players also have to play their role because when I joined, the likes of Tso and Lesley Manyathela were already there and they helped me a lot in terms of settling in. Old John welcomed me with open arms and I remember how he kept reminding me not to panic and keep things simple in my first game for Pirates. He did the same thing at Bafana and he’d be like, “Look, don’t worry about making mistakes, I will cover you. Just do this and that. If you make a mistake, forget about it and move on. I’m here to help you.”
VJ: Great stuff!
LL: That meant a lot to me because I knew I could count on him and that’s exactly what I did to those who came after me. Happy and other guys can tell you about the way I always guided and helped them settle into the team. That’s what I want to see from the current seniors and they must also continue to remind new players about what it means to play for Pirates. I think that’s also lacking because new players are panicking. Look at Bongani Sam, for instance. The boy is top quality, but he’s very young and still needs someone to guide and show him the way. He’s not the only one and I can see that some players are scared and paying with fear. They’re scared to make mistakes or lose possession because it is never easy to play for this team. However, once again, senior players need to stand up and be counted. The supporters are demanding and they don’t care about how well you played in the previous game, it is about what you do now. So, the senior players need to show and give confidence to the younger and new players so that they’re not scared.
VJ: Mhhh…
LL: For instance, Lorch hasn’t had the best of seasons and there was a section of our supporters that was starting to get on his back. What I realised is that he wasn’t even getting his teammates’ support. Someone should’ve gone to him to say, “Look, mfana, don’t try too hard. Keep it simple and we will help you.” When the team wasn’t doing well, I always knew there was a player or two who could get the team going. I’d go to Andile and Oupa, for instance, and tell them, “Guys, the team isn’t doing well and we can’t lose this game. You know I don’t have the skill and flair, you do, so get the team to play. I know you can do it.” I didn’t just say that, I meant it because I trusted those two and that’s what I think is lacking in the team now. It looks like players are talking off the field but scared to do it on the field. It is like they’re scared of one another and that is not the way to go. I remember we played a game in Cape Town and, at half time, as senior players we felt Daine and Bibo were not giving us enough. They were not their usual influential selves and Benni and I decided that we’d call these two aside and tell them exactly what we felt. We did just that, Benni spoke to Daine and I spoke to Bibo, and our second half performance was something else, with Daine and Bibo calling the shots. They were flying and the good thing was that, after the game, when the coach congratulated us on a better second half, Daine stood up and shared what we’d told him and Bibo. He also told the guys whenever someone says something to you about your performance, you must never take it personal but listen and that’s going to help you. He said he also felt that he wasn’t 100% in the game but, after our conversation with both of them, they lifted each other and got the team to perform. They both agreed to work even harder for the team’s benefit and that’s what you need. Sometimes players are scared to upset their teammates and that doesn’t help anyone. If your teammate isn’t tackling, defending or attacking enough, it doesn’t help him to keep quiet about it. You have to tell him and after the game you can talk about it if he feels you didn’t approach him nicely. When you have a lot of new players in the team, you can’t have that kind of a situation because everyone will be in their shells. When you have enough seniors who are leading, then you don’t worry about upsetting anyone because you know you’re a team. I so wish that the senior players can come to the party and help this team win something.
VJ: There’s a lot of talk about Bidvest Wits players being linked with both Pirates and Sundowns. If you had Pirates’ chequebook, who would be your priority signing from Wits?
LL: Look, I believe we have a really good and strong team but, like you said, we lack leadership and we are also conceding a lot of soft goals. We need Thulani at Pirates, big time! His experience would come in handy for the team and I believe he’s the missing link in our team. We need strong-minded characters like Sangweni, who would go forward and score when we need goals. That’s what Thulani can do for us. He defends well and then goes forward to score crucial goals for the team. He also leads by example and whenever I read about him being linked with Pirates, I’m reminded of Siya because he was also playing for Bafana when he joined us. He used his experience at Pirates and made a huge impact. If we can get Hlatshwayo, who is a great defender who can score, lead and organise our defence, we can definitely win something. I see all the other Wits players, but I’d definitely go for Tyson first because, like I said, we need him.
VJ: Champ, before we let you go, any message to the Pirates supporters?
LL: Everyone knows how much I love, respect and appreciate Pirates supporters. I want to take my hat off for them because they’ve been really behind the team this season. They spend their last cash to support the team and coach JZ and it is not by fluke that they’ve been doing so well. The team has always been playing good football but were not lucky enough to win as they are now.
VJ: Phinda Mzala, let’s leave it there. Thanks so much for your time.
LL: You’re always welcome, my champ. Once and Always.
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